Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
#1
There was an interesting little item on the BBC News earlier this morning, very early this morning, wasnt quite awake, but it seems there has been some recent debate as to what are the correct terms of usage for the national flag.
The BBC, those purveyors of truth wisdom and accuracy, commissioned research by experts in these matters as to what the correct usage is, so that henceforth they can get it exactly right in news bulletins etc. The historical experts in question researched tirelessly back to 1603 to the origin of the flag itself and through extensive archive material of allsorts and found in the end that both terms are right to use, both UNION JACK and UNION FLAG are correct for everyday usage.
So there you have it. The definitive word on the matter in case it has been keeping you up nights..lol
.
The general public have been right all along to call it a Union Jack as and when.
Previously some had thought that it can only be called the Union Jack when flown by the Royal Navy.
This is NOT the case.
Flag as fallen warrior symbol, flown at half mast above Dover Castle after the death of Margaret Thatcher...whose funeral it was recently announced cost the state £1.2 Million.
And below used in jollier circumstances at the Dover Regatta.
Blow dem horns !
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#2
Technically any flag can be a jack, by being flown on the jackstaff which is a short staff at the pointed end of a boat. Purists would say that the Union Flag is only the Union Jack when flown thus.
Modern usage however, now means that it can be called the UJ in other contexts.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 756- Registered: 6 Jun 2012
- Posts: 727
#3
Talking of ships, how were your sea legs Peter, good trip?
Guest 667- Registered: 6 Apr 2008
- Posts: 919
#4
I have always understood (like Peter) that it called a Union Jack when flown on the jack mast of a ship, but I have to say that my my main pet hate with the Union Flag is seeing it flown upside down. I can not understand why some people do not know the right way up to fly their own National flag.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#5
Outward not too good, our booked sailing was cancelled and the one we went on an hour later was consolidated with the previous two, so very crowded on the old Canterbury. Slightly rough but nothing to worry about. Coming back the (same) boat nearly empty and a smooth crossing. Just had enough time to nip up to Belgium for a few crates of beer, hit carrefour for food & wine, steak tartare at the brew pub in Cite Europe, fill up with diesel at €1.30 a litre, and back to the boat. P&O fare £24 including 3 bottles of wine. Saved £10 on fuel and £40 on beer and wine.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#6
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#7
All is not lost, controversy may continue...
Flags flown at half mast should be lowered no more than would allow for a flag to be flown above. The example above, at the castle, is way too low.
It looks as if someone has taken the 'half-mast' thing too literally.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,931
#8
Does it really matter what it is called after all it is only a collection of different coloured bits of material it is what the flag represents that is the important thing.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 744- Registered: 20 Mar 2012
- Posts: 412
#9
Wonder how much that pointless exercise cost the licence payer?
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#10
Jan, I wonder how that would come across in Welsh?
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,931
#11
Took me a fair time to work that one out Tom.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
#12
Flags are very important it seems particularly at times of national strife
when all rally round as it were..
Shame to say Harry I myself wouldnt really know whether the Union Jack was upside down or not.
But Im a foreigner after all. (Playing the foreigner card there !
)
I dont know what constitutes up as apart from down in this case.
Would be good if anyone had pictures to illustrate the difference.
To be fair to the castle Tom the picture is taken from ground level and as the castle is on high it doesnt show the full
extent of the flag pole.
Guest 667- Registered: 6 Apr 2008
- Posts: 919
#13
Paul the Top left of the Union Flag nearest the flag pole has the wide white stripe uppermost.. Take a look at the pictures above and you can see the wide white stripe on the left hand side (nearest flagpole) faces uppermost. Now I do not know if you are from the South or the North of Ireland but you would not see the Irish fly their flags upside down?
Apparently when a National flag is flown upside down it is a sign of being in distress.
Jan you are right to a certain degree about it being just material and what it represents is the important thing. Certainly when I was in the army raising and lowering of the flag was always done correctly and with respect.. You always got the flag the right way up and you never let it touch the floor and if you got it wrong you could look forward to a couple of extra guard duties, but I do believe we did call it both the Union Flag and the Union Jack.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
#14
ah I see now Harry. Thanks for that. Shall know now henceforth.
I'm from the South in Ireland.
Following your story there about Army days and the raising and lowering I can see how people can be sensitive when its shown wrongly.
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
#15
Vexillology is a vexatious topic! This is an interesting site:
http://www.flaginstitute.org (well, I think it is!) and supports the assertion that the Union 'Jack' name is a relatively recent arrival.
I like flags and I have a small collection of flags which I enjoy flying on the appropriate occasion. I have just come back from 2 weeks in America and am suffering from flag fatigue as just about every house, shop, construction crane, ex-forces member's grave sports a Stars and Stripes, I like the idea of public buildings and spaces flying a national flag but, for me, less is definitely more and over-liberal use feels more of a reactionary response rather than a sign of national pride.
Guest 904- Registered: 21 Mar 2013
- Posts: 312
#16
For anyone in any doubt as to the 'correct' use of Union Jack, I suggest you walk into any RN Wardroom and refer to the Union Flag as the Union Jack in any other situation other than that of flying from the Jackstaff. You may exit quicker than when going in...
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#17
This all arises because the UK is unique in not using the national flag as a nationality identifier as all other nations do. British vessels display the red, blue or white ensign according to the status of the ship or its skipper. Our ships only ever fly the UnionFlag as a jack, while foreign vessels may fly it from a lanyard as a courtesy flag when in British waters, or as a crew flag when carrying British crew.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#18
The Irish Flag represented in the Union Jack is that of Saint Patrick.
The Flag of Northern Ireland is that of Saint George and therefore corresponds to the English Flag in the Union Jack.
