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  And that is from a knowledgable view, I expect? Mel - I did not cast aspertions on you, I was just being flip - plus it is true, many people inside have decided to make their own rules up and it doesn't work. And while I don't believe in a deal of nannying either, it seems silly not to listen to people who actually know about things for the sake of a bit of bravado. I would also add that prison is nowhere near a holiday camp. It isn't a Siberian salt mine either, and I am actually rather proud that we don't treat people as animals in our prisons. I heartily approve of punishment and payback, but not of inhumanity.

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