Rogues and vagabonds begging in Dover
- 15 June 2010 21:3356504Rogues and vagabonds in Biggin Street Dover:
From Kentish Gazette 24 Feb 1829 back page col.4.:
"On Wednesday last as Matthew KENNETT Esq. Mayor and G. STRINGER Esq. his deputy were going up Biggin Street they were surprised at the boldness and audacity of two mendicants whom they saw not only announcing their arrival by knocking and ringing at the doors but absolutely obtruding on almost every person who passed them. The Mayor, Mr S. with the most praiseworthy promptness immediately procured two peace Officers who conveyed the worthless rascals to the Treadmill.
By the way it is a constant remark that Dover is the general resort for all rogues and vagabonds in this part of Kent and why? because no means are used to prevent their entrance. If a few such examples were made as the one in question Dover would be as free of mendicants as any other town. A great relief would also be afforded to the Parish Officers, who are constantly pestered by this class of people demanding assistance, which if not granted, are so abusive that it is necessary at times to obtain Peace Officers to curb their insolence.
(Kentish Gazette 24 Feb 1829 back page col.4.)
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred - 15 June 2010 21:3656508So, who stole the trademill? Which of us is the mendicant in this instance?
Seriously though, does anyone know where the Dovor Treadmill used to be sited? - 15 June 2010 21:4256514for some reason i seem to think of pencester gardens when reading the original post.
- 15 June 2010 23:1756523Can you spare some change for a cuppa tea, Guv? Plus ça change.....I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
- 16 June 2010 07:0056530Wasnt there some talk before that there was a gallows up where that pub is...gawd forget the name of the pub, but where we were going to put the Council Clock several years back...for the moment cant remember the pubs name but at the crossroads as you come down from Tower Hamlets. If they had a gallows there they may well have had an treadmill or two.
"...Conveyed the worthless rascals to the Treadmill" love that... such genteel terminology used those days.email: dover7@msn.com - 16 June 2010 07:2156536The Eagle Paul.
Roger - Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
16 June 2010 07:2356539paulb,it was across the road from the EAGLE pub at the bottom of tower hamlets road.
- 16 June 2010 09:2756556Treadmills
DOVER Gaol treadmill: The treadmill was in the old gaol in Dover's Market Square, near the Guildhall. Picture shows the old gaol, the small light coloured building set back, on right of the Guildhall. The stocks and pillory were sited on the right of the Square somewhere in front of the large building with rows of five windows. When the treadwheel was being 'worked' there was a sort of weather-vane on top of the gaol which turned round and was visible from the street. Unfortunately, the power from the treadwheel did not serve any practical purpose.
"Treadmills - close compartments in which prisoner remained for a quarter of an hour at a time, vigorously
treading down a wheel of 24 steps at a fixed rate. (after a period of rest, they resumed again). The men could get no firm tread as the steps sank away from under their feet and made it very tiring. The air became hot and difficult to breathe. ... Although stocks, pillory and roadside gibbets were no longer used the jails were very severe ... the treadmill, crank, oakum picking, and strict regimentation. Transportation only ceased to be an important method for major offenders in the early 1850s.. Where there was NO threat to PROPERTY, the criminal law was very lenient towards violence and sentences passed on those caught seem surprisingly light. Not until c.1865 were effective standards and treatment in gaol brought in and not until 1877 was a 'coherent national penal system' in place." (info from "The Victorian Underworld" by Kellow Chesney, 1970 - an excellent reference book on Victorian crime and punishment)
DOVER PROPOSAL for TREADWHEEL:
The Dover Telegraph 11 Aug 1849 back page col.3 has quite a lot of info about Treadmills:
Dover Town Council meeting "The question of erecting a treadwheel in the Borough was introduced by the Town Clerk. Mr ROBINSON, in proposing its erection (the estimated expense of which was £320 - an amount requiring about a halfpenny rate) observed that it was satisfied it was the best thing that could be done for decreasing the number of vagrants by whom Dover was infested.
Communications received:
1) from Maidstone prison (J.BONE): "prisoners in general dislike Treadwheel labour and it may therefore in some instances operate as a check to vagrants being troublesome in your town" " the power of our mill is applied to grinding corn... but I think for a small gaol a flywheel &c is better.."
2) from Governor of St Augustines Gaol, Canterbury (V.FENN): "my opinion is that prisoners generally and more particularly vagrants, dislike working at the treadwheel much more than they do simple imprisonment. The power of the treadwheel here is not applied to any purpose."
3) Sandwich Gaol (Thos ARIS, Governor): The treadwheels there have been and still are in use since erected in 1832 and 1841, and have had the effect of causing a considerable decrease in the number of committals yearly... much dreaded by the military prisoners and sensibly decreased their numbers. .... with vagrants almost inevitably committed for 14 days the low diet and labour at the treadwheel have been the means of almost driving them from this Liberty, only 9 committed to this prison in last 7 months.... a decrease in other classes of prisoners..."
Mr ROBINSON made other comments in favour of proposal at Dover. Mr BIRMINGHAM seconded and said it should be beneficial. Mr HART opposed the non-productive aspect as against the present "oakum picking" and proposed it was not expedient. The original proposal was carried.
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred - 16 June 2010 09:4256558What a lovely picture Kath, haven`t seen that one before. It`s certainly not too difficult to make the Market Square out. Lot`s more interesting info there.Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
- Alec Sheldon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 18 Aug 2008
- Posts: 1,037
16 June 2010 12:4156568Talking about the Eagle, I heard on Monday that it had closed. - 17 June 2010 04:5956628To bring this posting more up to date - the deputy mayor asked the police, at a recent meeting, about the persons begging in the town,to be told that there are three regulars and two had been dispatched to court and been given £80 fines but persisted - they have homes to go to and beg for extras. The police were asked to consider a no tolerance attitude. When the reply was "they are harmless" it was pointed out that it was the fear/worry put upon the young and vunerable that was the issue as well as the appearance of the town to visitors that was the concern, it was acknowledged.
D - 17 June 2010 07:2356638Very glad to hear the above posting. One beggar in particular, usually squat`s at the end of the row of shops at St Mary`s church, against the railings and given 50p, remarks that he needs a pound to get some food. He`s not harmless, he`s an obnoxious parasite to anyone who goes near him. He`s a p... head and needs removing, PERMANENTLY! And while on this subject, and I`ve mentioned it several times before, get them out of the subway at Newbridge. PERMANENTLY!Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
