Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
13 October 2009
20:5930407#1
Like to have views on more and bigger freight lorries on our roads, with political parties talking all the time about putting more on rail. Operation stack, all those lorries bumper to bumper for miles on the M20 causing constant delays all round with diversions. A good few train lengths there. And yet, just over the hill at Folkestone, lies a massive modern freight train yard for channel tunnel freight, and for most of the time, EMPTY. Most work lost by the illegal immigrant invasion, (thank you our French partners), and never returned.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
13 October 2009
21:2730410#2
there was a report earlier in relation to the proposed new freight hub suggesting that a lot of traffic has moved from road to rail over the past few years and will continue to increase.
i agree that it does not seem like that looking at the traffic on the m20.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
14 October 2009
07:1230423#3
The stop by junction 11 on the M20 is always under-used, maybe it's too expensive; don't forget that the majority of trucks parked in our laybys are from Eastern Europe and those drivers have very little spending money on such luxeries.
There was a news item recently about a proposal for a massive park on the outskirts of Maidstione - near Bearsted I think, where they will be transferring road freight to rail.
We have heard many times from DHB, that rail freight is a tiny proportion of transported freight and is not worth investing in, nor is containerised freight.
I agree there is a desire to take off as much freight from the roads as is practical, from a pollution as well as eco point of view, but there will be a cost - to "green" areas of land that will be used and if enough freight is moved to rail, will Dover still be a major employer and user ?
Roger
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
14 October 2009
07:3030425#4
Roger
nowt new here, road hauliers will always argue they go from point A to point B with no problem, ie door to door.
Where as trains, you can only get stuff to where theres a yard/station.
Not a reasonable reply from road hauliers, but never the less a reply.
And I'm not defending them.
Of course then DHB and hauliers would, if much traffic is taken from them moan about can they exist?
I have no Idea about differences in cost, IE road compared to rail, I presume rail is a lot dearer, and a lot more inconvient? any ideas john??
So this will go on and on, and has done!!
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
14 October 2009
11:0230443#5
and not forgetting dovers a20 problem.when the poo hits the fan we get it first.
Guest 673- Registered: 16 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,388
14 October 2009
11:1030445#6
DHB are most unlikely to enter the equation. Transhipping rail wagons from rail to ship and back again at the other side is very unlikely to happen again. British Rail built up a very substantial cross channel railway wagon trade using the SeaFrance Nord Pas de Calais in her original rail ferry configuration, running from a berth at the end of the Admiralty Pier to a berth in Dunkerque West. When the tunnel opened, with railway lines running under the sea, this operation was closed down. The NPC became a conventional RORO ferry, the Admiralty Pier berth was dismantled, the rail connection removed, the passenger Western Docks station converted into a cruise terminal and the sidings at the freight yard at Shakespeare Beach removed. The berth in Dunkerque West is still there but is boxed in by a later RORO berth.
The through rail freight operation via Eurotunnel has been a disaster and has dwindled year by year to a fraction of what was carried by British Rail. This is why the freight yard at Dollands Moor is virtually empty. In view of this calamitious handling of through freight via the direct tunnel rail link, DHB postulated some years ago that there might be an opening to run a rail ferry again but that it would require outside investment including rebuilding Shakespeare Tunnel to take rail wagons of the larger loading gauge required and obviously reinstating a rail connection and rail berth. The plans for Terminal 2 would need to be modified and the maximum traffic DHB contemplated would only be five percent of total port throughput.
The situation has now changed. Eurotunnel has been making major attempts to increase through rail traffic. From the outset, fifty percent of the paths through the tunnel have been required to be allocated to through rail freight trains and through Eurostar passenger trains with the other fifty percent used by Eurotunnel passenger and freight shuttles. The paths used by freight trains are now insignificant and those used by Eurostar far less than originally predicted so there is a great deal of spare capacity.
As we know, Eurotunnel was required to be built by private money and was a financial disaster and is now completely run by the French. BR was privatised and the major part of the rail freight division was handed over to EWS, which is now owned by Deutsche Bahn, the German nationalised railways. I think I am correct in saying that EWS and SNCF were jointly responsible for freight train operation through the tunnel and that Eurotunnel has now acquired its own specialised locomotives for operation in the tunnel and a licence to operate freight trains on European rails but haven't got time to look it up so Terry or JHG may care to confirm.
Freight trains from transhipment yards across Europe to similar ones in the UK, with only the local connection at either end handled by road, have always been seen as the rational and green alternative to individual lorries, each with their own driver, trundling all across Europe. This vision has always been stymied by a mixture of political and other factors but the EU has been knocking heads together and it could be that its time has finally come.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
14 October 2009
13:5030448#7
I did find out today, that DB Schenke, formerly EWS, are running a new service next month from Spain, with refrigerated containers. The railway will get them over here, and Eddie Stobart (top road haulier),in partnership with DB Schenke, will distribute it. With both company`s experts in their own field, this should be highly successful. It`s just come out in the Industries Railnews paper, so it`s not a rumour, or classified information.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
15 October 2009
16:4230528#8
Ed Connell wrote: "The berth in Dunkerque West is still there but is boxed in by a later RORO berth. "
As a daily traveller to Dunkerque I can say that this is not strictly true. Norfolk Line occassionally use the old (but modified) rail berth if their own is out of commission - and the railway lines are still on the link span, though that is as far as they go. The NPC, too, still has the rail lines on the lower car deck along with the fold-away buffers.
There is nothing new about container freight - just visit Tilbury or Southampton or any of the many container terminals around the country - even Dover in a very minor way. What needs to be looked at is the comparative cost of rail freight including the road freight costs between the manufacturer and the railhead and the desination railhead to final destination/distribution.
If rail freight were cheaper and easier to use don't you think it would already be in use to a greater extent than it already is? DHB are unlikely to get involved in discussions of this sort because their very existence relies on road freight and the ferry industry. A dramatic reduction in road freight would sound a death knell for the ferries in my opinion.
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 October 2009
17:0530536#9
i cannot ever foresee railfreight coming back to it's former glory days.
that is not to say that certain bulk commodities with no great time urgency cannot be transferred to rail.
in the long run, i think that hauliers would benefit with less congestion on roads.
might also send a message to the french fisherman about blockades.
Guest 673- Registered: 16 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,388
15 October 2009
22:1430582#10
Re Phil's post: this is a photo I took of the Quai d'Alsace a few weeks ago. The old railway linkspan, complete with rails, was left in situ for some reason, probably cheaper than dismantling it, and is directly up the centre of the photo. The blue double deck RORO linkspan was built immediately alongside it (to the right in the photo) with a row of piles parallel to the Quai d'Alsace, connected by walkways. I imagine it was done this way to give the extra length for bigger ferries. The Northern Merchant and Midnight Merchant used to use this berth. The Dawn Merchant used to stern load on the Quai de Ramsgate, which runs at an angle from the end of the Quai d'Alsace. The Quai de Ramsgate was then remodelled and fitted with the super-duper double deck linkspan for the new Maersk ferries and the linkspan on the Quai d'Alsace was beefed up to enable it to function as a secondary berth for same.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
16 October 2009
14:5330650#11
Probably the reason the linkspan is still in situ Ed is that, along with the German railways, the SNCF don`t go on a paranoid state of ripping up rails, demolishing the infrastructure etc like this country has always been good at. It`s now costing billions modernising our rail system due to short sighted governments from years gone by.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
16 October 2009
14:5930652#12
To think, like alot of other industries, shipbuilding, cars etc, we led the world. The rot set in, and this is what`s happened to Dover and many other towns. Why?????
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
16 October 2009
19:3030682#13
you wil get various answers to that question colin.
i will wait patiently for the first offering that will accuse the trade unions, followed closely by lazy businessman that spent too long on the golf course instead of going abroad and selling their products.
we seem to lead in the service industry capacity, trouble is these can be easily moved around from country to country.
