Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
15 February 2011
17:4892768""Breaking news house of commons have just agreed to charlie elphick and hazel blears pitch to have a debate on the big society 28th Feb""
I have to say that Charlie seems exceptionally active in the Commons. I get something from The Work for You' nearly every day sometimes more than one in a day. Far greater activity than I have seen before.
If high levels of activity help push Dover's agenda then Charlie is certainly pushing it all he can....
Well done.
http://twitter.com/Phillip_Blond/statuses/37551927352889344Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
15 February 2011
17:5992773Charlie is certainly busy. A debate on the Big Society should be interesting in that some aspect of understanding of what it actually is might just reach the general population. Everyone is talking about it...its like a UFO, people talk about it incessantly but dont know what it is or where its come from...
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
15 February 2011
19:3292783Put simply PaulB - its the opposite to Big Government.
15 February 2011
19:3792784I get They Work For You as well, it's a great tool. I use it for local issues and to check out how the MP local to work is up to. Useful!! It is good to see the energy of Charlie.
Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
15 February 2011
19:4992787Should be interesting !
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 February 2011
20:1792789i do wonder if we will be any the wiser, mr blond originated the "big society" idea and the more i read his stuff it seems a hotch potch of ideas.
all very academic, plenty of long words but nothing that explains things to mere mortals.
dave was trying to sell the idea to the countries top volunteers yesterday and they all retorted in a similar vein, "yes we like the idea so why is our funding being cut"?
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
15 February 2011
20:5792791Good luck to Charlie, I hope Mr Cameron's failure to sell the idea works in our favour, making this a case study in the ideas surrounding Big Society.
After reading Peter's link, I still think we lack part of the structure to realise the better parts of the concept, and others are being cut! As Peter also pointed out the idea is quite hard to grasp. Coming From Peter(a smart bloke) I think this exposes the paradoxical nature trying to galvanise 'the people' with a concept that many won't understand or hasn't been properly explained. The cuts are now intrinsically linked with Big Society, either because Mr Cameron saw the concept as a way negating responsibility or because of not really being able to convey the idea. I still think two words have been hijacked to carry out an existing agenda. Even if the genesis of the idea wasn't about party politics, it has now been made so.
If people find the concept hard as a result of living their adult lives under a Labour government: by the same reasoning I would suggest Mr Cameron is least qualified to talk about society as he has never required it. Subscribing to this empiricism, as he has never lost his job or needed treatment from the NHS, he is least qualified to make cuts too!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 February 2011
21:0692792i must congratulate you darren, you know more big words than mr blond.
empricism indeed, how many people know the meaning of the word?
no wonder the majority of the population are turned of by the rhetoric of the time.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
15 February 2011
21:2192793I don't know Howard, on Twitter you are restricted to 160 characters, so he probably holds back!
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
15 February 2011
21:3192794Yes Darren you are right, we do lack much of the structure and that is why the whole project is such a challenge. However the structure is as much lacking because of mindset issues in government causing a lack of will to build the structure as it is from lack of formal frameworks already in place. BS (unfortunate acronym, I know!) is a tough concept to grasp for the generations who have been spoon fed with nanny-knows-best centralism.
That does not mean the concept is wrong. There have certainly been difficulties in putting the concept across and the opposition have put their fingers in their ears and shouted Its All About Cuts. It isnt about cuts. The BS initiative would have happened even if we were still in an expansionary phase of the economic cycle. It was several years in the planning.
Communication and presentation are issues which need to be addressed. Messrs Cameron and Blond inhabit a world in which everyone understands what they say. We do not.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
15 February 2011
21:5292795actually darren i did not bother with the tweet, i have been following his rants for some time, he is an academic theologian with many philosphical theories.
the best i can say about his essays is that they would all earn a good score at scrabble.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
15 February 2011
22:3192798This is an idea whose time has come. Look what happened when Copernicus proposed heliocentrism.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
15 February 2011
22:4292799And I thought this was a serious debate, Howard. If you don't understand what empiricism means, fine, but at least take the time to look it up.
Your scrabble jibe is not worthy of a forum moderator. Have you ever met Phillip Blond? He would be the first to admit that BS is an inchoate concept which will morph over time into something which everyone understands but maintains that the basic intellectual skeleton of the idea is sound, and I agree with him.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 705- Registered: 23 Sep 2010
- Posts: 661
16 February 2011
00:2792805I find it increasingly irritating that those(mainly and predictably the opposition party) with a political axe to grind are deliberately trying to bat down the potential of 'Big Society' and purposely labeling it as a cover up for the current cuts. It has nothing to do with government cuts-the cause of these is cross party in origin. Years of successive 'Big Government' since WW2 have caused our current problems,years of the banks playing poker with the family cash and decades of the the country's volunteers being held back behind a wall of restrictive regulation.
'Big Society' is the volunteer's charter and as I have mentioned elsewhere I doubt that even the prime minister is aware of the energy he is about to release. It is with relief that hard working MP's like Charlie Elphicke are actively moving Dover to centre stage,partly to release and partly to absorb that energy. Empirical yes, but inspiring and totally radical - an opportunity that won't be seen again for generations.
Never give up...
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
16 February 2011
01:0692807Richard, I am afraid there will always be those who can't take on new and radical ideas. If they do not understand they feel threatened. In order to get the big society concept across we need missionaries to spread the word.
The problem is that it means different things in different contexts. At one extreme big society is Dover buying its own port. At the other end of the scale it's a group of mothers taking over a school meals service. But the common thread running through every big society initiative will be citizens waking up and saying 'we can run that better than the government/council/etc' and setting out plans to take that particular function away from the dead hand of government.
We can't hurry things. It will take time, but it will happen.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
22 February 2011
09:0193762Speaking of people that can't take on new ideas, such as homosexuality. Here's Norman Tebbit's take on things from his Telegraph blog, quoting John Kay from the Financial Times.
"In the meantime Cameron is desperately trying to define the Big Society. I was struck by an article by John Kay, the science and economics writer in the Financial Times, of February 2, in which he observed that "when someone tells you something is too complex for you to undestand it usually means they do not really understand it". I keep asking myself: if it has been the driving force in Camerons political career, how can it be that he is unable to explain it to us all? Why does the Prime Minister need Mr Cooper as Director of Strategy at Number 10, if as Matthew d'Ancona tells us in the Sunday Telegraph, his skill is "to tell it how it is, on the basis of detailed poll findings"."
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
22 February 2011
09:4693766It will take time to sink in. It is a paradigm shift which has to take place and such a change in philosophy will not happen instantly.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
22 February 2011
09:5493767DT1 - I had to laugh at your first line... are you suggesting that 'homosexuality is a new idea' Tell that to the ancient Greeks!!!
Back to the sustance of your point.
The problem people have in understanding 'Big Society' is the way they have over the years been led to believe that government must act, do something, provide or whatever. They just cant get their heads around not holding on to that 'state' comfort blanket.
Big Society can simply be summed up by getting the State out of our lives. In that it takes on many facets, it does not offer one single solution to every problem. That is just not a simple sound bite answer of the kind the public have been dumbed down to expect.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
22 February 2011
10:1893769With regards to my first line it was just me being facetious, pointing out Lord Tebbit's intolerance and bigotry.
He does however point out the failing of Mr Cameron to convey this philosophy. Unfortunately it has been turned into a sound bite and one that Mr Cameron cannot substantiate. It is also believed that the speed and severity of cuts could jeopardise it's success. The coalition government has made cuts and Big Society synonymous and is now trying to detach the two ideas by suggesting that people do not understand.
I read a similar bedtime story to my children the other day, it was called The Emperor's New Clothes.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
22 February 2011
12:3793784DT1 - Lord Tebbit is far from being an intolerant bigot. I first met him while he was a relative unknown before 1979 and enjoyed a 'glass or two' with him on more than one occasion at conferences.
You cannot get away from the fact that Brown's economic insanity has left us with a dreadful legacy and the sooner it is dealt with the better.
That does mean spending cuts and the main problem we have is that the government is simplty not cutting enough. They need to get spending down to below 30% of GDP from 53% as soon as possible to reduce the burden on business and the public and so we can compete.
The days of big government are over and we must never return to that bloated, bossy, centrally controlled way of governing. That means people have to re-learn to take control of their own destiny and stop relying on government. Call it what you like.