More bad press for Dover
- 15 February 2013 22:32215789
- 15 February 2013 22:39215793This sort of thing happens all over the country. It's only bad for Dover if the council and police do not call the license in for review and prosecute the licensees. Under the law there is no statutory defence against a charge of serving an underage person. I am so incredibly careful, my record is ID-ing a young lady of 28. On the other hand, my daughter (29) was recently ID'd in Marks & Spencer.I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
- 15 February 2013 22:48215799i can better that peter, when i worked at unwins a female came in, very boyish figure, baseball cap pulled forward, nervously selected an alcopop from the fridge and put it on the counter whilst averting my gaze.
i asked for id, turned out she was 35 with 3 teenage children and owned the shoe shop a few doors away. - 15 February 2013 22:48215800""I would also urge parents to ensure they know where their children are and that they are not drinking alcohol in public and certainly not visiting pubs and clubs.""
'not drinking alcohol in public' // 'certainly not visiting pubs and clubs'
Is it a good idea for children to drink alcohol in private?
Are under 18s barred from premises selling alcohol?Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing. - 15 February 2013 23:01215803It all makes me feel a total hypocrite. From the age of 15, old Ignatius Dempsey, landlord of the Shakespeare in Butchery Lane, Canterbury, kept a special area for us underage real ale drinkers so that we could quickly beetle out if the Law entered. Likewise the Olive Branch.I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
- 15 February 2013 23:10215804Yes Peter, been there, done that. (not actually there)
The pub has moved away from it's place in everyday life, this began with the open plan design, I think.Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing. - Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
16 February 2013 07:30215824there is a story on this forums front page about it. - 16 February 2013 10:03215860Six years ago, in answer to the question...
"Can children sit at the bar in a public house?"*
"Assuming you are in England, Wales or the Scilly Isles the relevant legislation is now the Licensing Act 2003.
The answer to your question depends on the age of the children and if they are accompanied by an adult or on their own.
You also need to understand the meaning of a bar although the expression is not actually used in the LA 2003 and technically there is no longer such a thing. A bar is any place which is 'exclusively or primarily' used for the supply of alcohol for consumption of such drinks on the premises, so it might include a place or part of premises even though snacks are being served in it. A bar is a concept of use and activities not just the physical structure at which you might sit or be served.
Young people under 16yrs on their own can not go into premises where alcohol consumption is the exclusive or primary feature of trade.
Between midnight and 5.00 a.m. under 16yrs and on their own can not go into any premises where any alcohol for consumption is available on the premises, no matter how low key the alcohol consumption might be.
It follows therefore that once a person is actually 16yrs it is up to the management if the person is allowed into the premises and if they are under 16yrs but accompanied by an adult, ie. anyone over 18yrs they may go into premises, again subject to the managements discretion.
There is an exception also if the young person is merely travelling through one part of the premises if no other convenient route is available.
I am a bit surprised by any licensee who is not aware of these important changes to the legislation which have been in force now for well over a year. Section 145 LA 2003 is the appropriate piece of legislation. Under previous legislation the age limits were under 14yrs. Please be careful of any answer which tries to link the answer to just restaurant or food areas etc., it has all been changed and there are no longer seperate restaurant licences, children certificates etc.
Source(s):
LLB ( Hons ) Specialist legal subject. Licensing law lecturer and trainer."
This strikes me as saying that the licensee has done nothing wrong in this case, just as long as these two 16yo girls were not drinking alcohol.
Might 'we' again be focussing the blame upon the victim?
*http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070523104852AAlUbMvIgnorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing. - 16 February 2013 10:14215868Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
- Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,931
16 February 2013 10:50215880I was also an underage drinker about 15 years old and can remember drinking Babycham (with 2 cherries) when my father popped out for a pint with his friend who was the landlord of a pub near Dulwich railway station up in London.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
------------------------------------------------------------------- - 16 February 2013 12:15215892Under the Act, the Police and the local authority can impose tighter conditions than those laid down by the Act as a minimum. Here are those for the Party Bar, courtesy of DDC's website:
Full Address: The Party Bar, First Floor And Second Floor, 8-9 Church Street, Dover, Kent, CT16 1LY
Designated Premises Supervisor: Mr Keith Craig
First Issued 12/13/2007 Latest Licenced Period from 13/12/2012 to 12/12/2013
Conditions:
Annex 2 General All staff shall receive training in the requirements of the Licensing Act 2003. A training record for each member of staff shall be maintained and produced on demand to the police or local authority officer. Where the premises is open to the public after 21:00 hours on any Thursday, Friday or Saturday there shall be sufficient door staff on duty to control patrons. The minimum number deemed to be acceptable shall be: Front of premises = 2 door staff Interior of premises = 1 door supervisor per 100 patrons. Door staff shall remain on duty until the front of the premises is cleared of patrons at the end of any session. All door staff shall be licensed by SIA and be readily identifiable by high visibility armbands that contain their personal SIA identification badge. Crime and disorder Any CCTV system installed on the premises shall be fit for purpose and maintained in good and efficient working order. The CCTV system shall be utilised when the premises are open to the public. At least two cameras will provide recording of the front of the premises. Recorded media shall be retained for a period of 31 days and made available to police or an authorised officer of the licensing authority on demand. A random search policy will be in operation on entry to the premises. Any person refusing to be searched will be refused entry. Any weapons or controlled drugs discovered as a result of the operation of this policy will be handed to a police officer as soon as practicable after discovery. A log of any such "finds" will be maintained and made available to police or an officer of the Licensing Authority on demand. Public Safety The Designated Premises Supervisor shall ensure that at all times the premise is open to the public there are sufficient staff on duty so as to ensure public safety and prevent crime and disorder. Polycarbonate glasses shall be utilised throughout the premises. All drinks will be provided in polycarbonate glasses No alcoholic drinks shall be taken outside of the premises. Nuisance Signs shall be placed in a clear and visible position adjacent to all entrances/exits requesting patrons to leave quietly and respect the amenity of the neighbourhood. The Premises Supervisor shall monitor noise to ensure no public nuisance is caused. Children The premises will operate a Challenge 21 policy requiring photographic identification from any person who is or appears to be under the age of 21 years. The only acceptable photographic identification shall be a current photo-card driving licence or passport. No persons under the age of 18 years shall be allowed on the premises other than those related to staff members or those attending private functions where members of the public other than invitees are excluded. No person under the age of 18 years shall be permitted to stand at the bar Annex 3 All regulated entertainment to cease 30 minutes before closing time. All doors and windows to be kept closed during regulated entertainment to prevent noise breakout and protect the amenity of the neighbourhood. Noise from regulated entertainment to be controlled such that no noise nuisance is caused to any residential property. No drinks to be taken off the premises at any time.
Unless it was during a private function with the public excluded, the venue was prima facie committing a breach of its licensing conditions.
Of the four licensing objectives, the one which the authorities seek to promote most energetically is the protection of children from harm.I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson - 16 February 2013 12:23215896no doubt the licencing authorities will be looking closely at this incident.
- 16 February 2013 12:26215897#11
Thank you Peter, for the particulars.
Let's hope that the CCTV can help identify the assailant.Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing. - 16 February 2013 12:42215899When we were in Farnham, a young lad came in and asked for a pint of lager. I asked for his ID and he said he had left it at home but he had a picture of it on his iPhone. He was very disgruntled when I told him that I would gladly sell him a picture of a pint of lager, but if he wanted the real thing he had to produce the real ID.I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson