Greek referendum
- 1 November 2011 15:21134463big news at the moment is the plan by the greek government to ask the people to approve the austerity measures in return for a bail out.
the immediate effect was for the world's markets to fall - wise heads are saying that the referendum will not happen and even if it did their constitution that there must be a 3 fifths majority in favour in their parliament. - 1 November 2011 15:27134464Austerity measures will be imposed perforce. They have spent all the money they borrowed; they can't borrow any more; so government cheques will start bouncing. You can't print a common currency.I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
- Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
1 November 2011 16:23134467let all the eu countrys have a referendum,then lets see what happens.
- 1 November 2011 16:30134470I think the Greek Prime Minister is under immense stress, frankly I dont think he can take it any more. The Euro leaders want him to do one thing, his people want him to do something else...or so it appears...his only way forward seems to be to seek a mandate from them the people. This announcement though, scuppers everything agreed re Euro which is a total bummer as the markets have fallen again today as said above. All confidence gone again.
The Prime Minister(Greek) is in an impossible position. The oft used term is appropriate, he is between a rock and a hard place.
He may be finished as now there is talk of an election to get him out, but you can see where he is coming from. He really cant proceed without a mandate from the people...who are already rioting in the streets and those not rioting are hugely disgruntled. If he was sure they were behind him he would be clear to proceed.email: dover7@msn.com - 1 November 2011 16:35134476in other words he is trying to abdicate responsibility paul, don't blame him either.
the result of any referendum is a foregone conclusion and he knows that, nobody is going to vote for abject poverty. - 1 November 2011 16:43134478There is no alternative to (relative) abject poverty for the majority of Greeks. Individuals who possess wealth outside Greece will be OK but the average Greek will suffer falling real wages and a drastic fall in living standards to the level of the 1960s. Their only way out is to leave the Euro and devalue. Even then it will be a hard grind for a generation or more.I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
- 1 November 2011 18:14134491The Greek PM did well in choosing Democracy, any other choice would be Tyranny.
Someone must still explain to me where the EU paradise they promised years ago ended.
I said all along that the 12 stars were fake
Chanters, Drums and Drones Potty Time http://youtu.be/99fMqpjnXYA
Rule Britannia!
Kent First http://youtu.be/04F3mAP3fV4 Keep banging on http://youtu.be/qYCU_SKmkGQ - 1 November 2011 18:43134493The PM can choose what he likes but the people are likely to opt for Anarchy.I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
- 1 November 2011 18:52134496they were under military rule in the not too distant past, it would not surprise me if that happened again.
the demonstrations and stone throwing are a daily occurence it cannot go on like that for ever.
not only would they have to leave the currency but the union too. - 1 November 2011 20:50134527You are right Howard.I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
- 1 November 2011 23:51134554Peter, if the Greeks opt for a NO to the proposed bailout and austerity measures, they won't be able to pay back their foreign debt, in the same way as they can't pay it back if they voted Yes.
So their best bet would be to vote NO to the bailout and so avoid austerity too.
I say: it was the lavish EU lending schemes that slackened the Greek economy in the first place.
The Greeks would not do away with Democracy. They fought Communism back in 1948 when Tito of Jugoslavia was trying to promote the people's army of this, that and the other in Albania and Greece and supporting a Communist attempt to take Greece by force.
They didn't want the rule of the Colonels either and dropped it in 1973.
So it is up to the Greeks to decide if they want the rule of Col. Austerity. I doubt austerity was written on the package when Greece joined the Common Market, unless they overlooked the smallprint.
Just leave it to Democracy. One characteristic about ancient Athens and Democracy, was that the people could decide when to go to war, but also decide when to pull out of it.
When they were fed up, they didn't just let it drag on... and on...and on....
The PM with his decdision for a referendum will probably become a hero among the Demos Chanters, Drums and Drones Potty Time http://youtu.be/99fMqpjnXYA
Rule Britannia!
Kent First http://youtu.be/04F3mAP3fV4 Keep banging on http://youtu.be/qYCU_SKmkGQ - 1 November 2011 23:57134556Austerity will be inevitable because there will be no cash. Peoples' living standards will plummet.I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
- 2 November 2011 00:06134557Peter.
Give me a potato and I'll cook it. Give me 5 pence and I'll buy a potato and cook it.
If I haven't got 5 pence, I grow a potato. I can also grow lots of them. Problem solvedChanters, Drums and Drones Potty Time http://youtu.be/99fMqpjnXYA
Rule Britannia!
Kent First http://youtu.be/04F3mAP3fV4 Keep banging on http://youtu.be/qYCU_SKmkGQ - 2 November 2011 00:09134558So the Greeks go from their traditional cuisine to eating spuds out of the garden. If that's not austerity I don't know what is.I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
- 2 November 2011 10:40134576The measures the Greeks will have to put up with are as follows - these are the conditions that their austerity package will offer:
Income tax threshold would be lowered from €12,000 (£10,300) to €5,000 (£4,300)
Retirement age would be raised from 61 to 65
VAT would rise from 19 to 23 per cent
Higher property taxes
Monthly pensions above €1,000 (£860) would be cut by 20 per cent
Excise on fuel, cigarettes and alcohol would rise by a third
To qualify for a full pension people would be required to complete 40 years work
Retirees aged under 55 would lose 40 per cent of their pensions over €1,000 (£860)
Public sector wages would be cut by 20 per cent
Employees of state-owned enterprises would have their wages cut by 30 per cent
A cap would be introduced on wages and bonuses
30,000 civil servants would be suspended on partial pay
All temporary contracts for public sector workers would be terminated.
Just one in 10 civil servants retiring this year would be replaced
New levies on household incomes of between one and five per cent
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2055872/Greece-referendum-Crisis-deepens-Greek-National-Defence-chiefs-sacked.html#ixzz1cXAvweiM
How many people here would be happy to accept these conditions ? and we think we have it bad.
Roger - 2 November 2011 10:45134577absolutely no chance of them voting for that, that last one puts the tin hat on things.
after the cuts in the tax threshold, raising of v.a.t. and property tax, people then get hit with a levy on household income, - 2 November 2011 11:16134583Well Roger. On the whole it seems that the Greeks are 'All in this together'.
Is it worse to suffer a pay cut (with some small personal saving in tax?) or be sacked?
Is the Greek cap a one-size-fits-all affair?
How is Dover off for second homes? Will the proposed doing-away-with second home allowance boost the local economy?
The picture you paint of how the Greeks are dealing with their problems is in stark contrast to how things are done here. Here we seem content to load the suffering upon those most used to it. If the Greeks make cuts and increase taxes across the country as a whole they are yet a more advanced Democracy than the UK. 'We' seem set to assist traditional Blue-zones and play fast and loose with our fellows in the Red-zones.
Party before Country, as ever.Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing. - 2 November 2011 11:40134585My take on the issue is now loaded up on my blog - I wont repeat it here.
- 2 November 2011 11:40134586Beat me to it,Tom