howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
found this rather surprising, will be interesting to see how the current reforms leave us in the league table.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Finland is top. It's an interesting system and a study of it would cause many of us to re-think some of our own prejudices. Here are some reasons:
1. Children only start school at 7.
2. All teachers are required by law to possess a master's degree.
3. Streaming was abolished in the 1980s and all secondary schools are now comprehensives.
4. There are only a tiny handful of private schools and these are not allowed to charge fees.
5. Teaching of foreign languages starts at 7 and by the time the brightest leave university at 21, they will be proficient in Finnish, Swedish, German, English and Russian. 69% of all Finns speak three or more languages fluently.
6. The system is not geared to generating a highly educated elite but a well-educated whole population. If you aren't literate and numerate by the time you reach the end of primary school, you stay down. Hence, very few do.
7. Finnish teenagers do not gain a badge of respect from their peers for failure or bad behaviour.
8. The number of pupils deemed to have special needs is very small.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
all very socialist and very successful too as the tables show, i wonder what michael gove will make of it with his academy schools.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
The bit I approve of is 7 - most laudable.
As for the rest - 8 is perhaps a clue here as to their results. That is a social matter, not one of any particular education system.
2 - I have met many superb teachers who do not have a masters degree. Too many people place too much emphasis on paper qualifications rather than character in this country.
3 - It was streaming and Grammars that help social mobility in this country. Educational decline and comprehensives went hand in hand.
4 - It is a matter of freedom. Nothing wrong with private education whether the expensive kind of the more focussed and affordable type that many people can access, additional tutoring etc.
6 - I approve of a well-educated whole population but we do need elites in all walks of life. There must be encouragement, incentives and aspiration to build elites whether in business, sport, science, engineering etc.
As for foreign languages. I am all for it but not necessarily as a priority over a basic sound education in the three R's.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i would agree about the masters degree bit barry, doesn;t mean they can impart their knowledge or even control a class.
the removal of streaming and fee paying schools has led finland to be the world leader, food for thought.
i don't see them trying to stop an elite, if everybody has a good education the cream will still rise to the top.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
No Masters Degrees...just Masters, eh?
Yes Howard, to your third point in #5. It must be possible for more than scum to rise to the top.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Howard - that is a massive assumption what you have just said in the second sentence and there is no direct causal relationship. It is far more likely to do with the low level of special needs and that is to a large extent a social matter. We all know that diet and parental motivation are key elements in any child's education, again social not educational issues.
Streaming is shown to be of great educational benefit in many countries, our system went down the drain when it was undermined here, hence it returning even if disguised as 'setting'. Common sense also tells us that children learn best alongside those of a similar ability and where teaching can progress at a level and speed appropriate. Likewise the private education thing is also a red herring.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
result are what matter barry - finland are getting them better than anybody we should learn from them.
we do not know the criteria for special needs in finland i would have thought the social conditions are slightly different there.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Howard, I suspect their special needs are very different indeed and that is the point. Yes, results are the key but those results depend on your starting point and the challenges faced during the educational years. Family break-up, drugs, poor diet, poor discipline at home, parents who just do not care, neglect etc - all social issues that are very relevant to results. I suspect that Finland, as a society, does not have anything like the degree of such problems as we do. If I had time I would do some comparative research into these matters, perhaps someone else will.....
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
Barry, are you suggesting that socioeconomic factors affect educational outcomes?
Not according to Mr Gove.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
I didn't mention this before, but if you mention special needs to a Finnish teacher he will immediately think of the brightest who are under-stimulated in the mainstream and need extra attention to develop their full potential.
In post 2 I am merely saying that we should open our minds a bit.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
Agreed Peter.
I also really think that is a profound point about the notion of 'special needs'. State schools were trying to highlight this special need with varying degrees of success. Often these special needs are overlooked. Schools were asked to highlight and track talented students and to provide additional stimulation and support. I always thought it was poorly executed, often with a quota trying to be met rather than an individual exception being made.
More needs to be done!
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Finland apperars to be getting it right(as peter says) and maybe we should look closely at that system as it appears to work.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Yes, Keith, my point exactly. How can you improve at anything unless you study and learn from what the 'best of breed' are doing?
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Peter
again we agree
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS