Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
I brought a book 10 years ago I think when it came out - Yesterday's Whitefriars by Paul Crampton - I have been reading it again for the first time this evening.
Whitefriars was decimated in the Baedeker Raids where a large amount of the buildings were destroyed. Although plans for development first came up in the 1930s it wasn't until the 1960s that plans came together only after numerous various attempts
Many lovely Georgian buildings were destroyed as well as many mediaval housing and churches.
A huge (and unfinished) ring road was carved through the other historic areas and the town has suffered ever since with them clogging up as it left major bottle necks.
Rather horrible concrete monstrocities were went up like the multi story car park with many important archaeological remains destroyed.
Many more plans and several false starts has led to what I think is a clone shopping area that you can't tell from any other town
When you look at it Canterbury isn't that different to Dover.....
Been nice knowing you :)
Thats a brilliant book isnt it Paul , I find it so hard to superimpose the old streets and buildings over the modern architecture . I remember the beautiful old church that stood at the East station roundabout and the terraced houses that faced the station , they where knocked down to be replaced by the bland flats that are there now
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
One of my jobs years ago was puting steel work into the old shops in Canterbury,so some still look old but behind the walls there is steel. and lots of it.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Even most of the city wall is fake !! We have a real castle (and it has floors inside)!!
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 706- Registered: 25 Oct 2010
- Posts: 285
Martyr's Field is interesting.
I wrote about it here
http://aroundmyways.livejournal.com/Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
In some ways (those you've mentioned above Paul) Canterbury and Dover may be similar, but it is in the way they now look after each Town - or not as wth Dover.
Canterbury's buildings are clean and smart; the Town is clean and smart and so is their river. There is much greater pride and much greater realisation that if the Town is kept clean and smart and therefore more welcoming, many more peope will visit and spend their money there - which they do, in great numbers.
Canterbury is also a "destination" - some where to go to, not go through as it is here.
It's the whole philosophy about each Town that is so different.
Roger
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Very interesting link there Penny, very interesting story at the top of your page there.
Also interesting is Pauls item at the top of this page. Canterbury has a kind of magic about it, I dont know what it is, not something you get in the same way in Dover, even though Dover is equally as ancient. I think Canterbury retains the feel of times past about it, you cant quite put your finger on it but its there, whereas I guess Dover has lost most of same possibly through war damage and so on....and the replacement buildings have a ramshackle air.
Canterbury packs in the visitors so it makes/generates money. Every time I go there it is packed. It sucks people in from the surrounding towns and of course visitors by the busload. As Roger said the river is gorgeous too.
Here is a pic of river taken recently..not sure what's the name of the river..is it the Stour? Stunningly clean....
Ducks feeding.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Dover is never going to compete with Canterbury, but the main point is that everything thinks that 'we' are unique and only Dover suffers with demolitions, bad road planning, false starts on development plans, dodgy 60s buildings !!!
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
I remember a letter in the DE about 20 years ago drawing an interesting analogy between Canterbury and Dover.
it was written by Lorraine Sencicle and at the time communist regimes were falling and Eastern Europe was in the news.
She compared driving from Dover to Canterbury every day, to work, to going from a communist country to a capitalist one where the people are better dressed, slimmer, happier, healthier-looking and there are nice things to buy in the shops.
Dover still has more than a touch of Eastern Europe about it, and people resent it. In fact part of me feels angry when I go to Canterbury because the contrast with Dover is so enormous.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
difficult to make a comparison between the two, canterbury has a per capita income much higher than the national average whilst ours is much lower.
developers would have known this hence the building of the whitefriars centre and there is major out of town shopping.
the cathedral is a draw in its own right, smack bang in the middle of town with plenty of museums and places of historic interest to visit.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
All are valid comments of course, but Dover could be so much better if it was managed or supported, but it isn't.
Andrew's posting above about an article written by Lorraine Sencicle 20 years ago somehow sums it up - not much has changed has it really ?
How many people go to Canterbury and think why aren't the buildings in Dover as well looked after ? Why aren't we as proud of our Town ? why isn't Dover as welcoming ? Why is there so much litter in our river ? etc. etc.
All these questions are valid, but never addressed.
When I wrote to DDC, DTC and DHB recently about supporting Dover; I had a reply from DTC that they are doing lots of things successfully to promote and move Dover forward, I had to argue that this cannot be the case as many people who live in Dover and many of those who visit here are very disappointed with the town - many peope are incensed.
I don't think we're talking about income per capita Howard, or even having the Cathedral in the centre of the City - not sure about lots of Museums and other places of historical interest, to my mind, we're talking about the differences between the state of Dover and the state of Canterbury.
Roger
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
I love Dover, it has so much going for it if we would only get of our collective backsides and make something of it.
But I suppose after all it is just so much easier to whinge than to do....
Canterbury is fine - too twee for my taste, but does have some good shops (mostly the ones off the main drag which frankly is like Whitefriars yet another identikit high street), a generally clean town centre & a superb new theatre. Of course it is also a University Town so inevitably caters for and suffers from a student population
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
Many of us do things for the town in various ways. Some, for example, like to get their photo in the DE every time; others do so without a fanfare of publicity. Each to their own .
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
Me too Andrew - not interested in the fanfare or photos - just want to make my patch a better place to live, work and play
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
very true andrew, i have never known a place like dover.
stack full of volunteers that just do things and keep quiet about it - usually only find out by chance.
I really like Dover , I have worked all over East Kent and can truely say that I never met as many nice people as when I worked in the Dover area
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Fair comment Ross - not sure if it was aimed at any one in particular, but (generally) people grumble or make suggestions because they care, not because they are (necessarily) negative.
Individuals can get off their collective backsides as you call it, but an individual without any sort of backing or support cannot do very much.
I appreciate the success the LRCF achieves; the Priory Forum community group exists to help improve the Priory area of the Maxton, Elmsvale and Priory ward.
We are working on developing our next project and we do that relatively quietly, buit when we need publicity, we go for it; it creates awareness and generates interest in what we're doing.
The Town Centre of Dover is a bigger thing altogether and needs a person to work full-time on initiatives and projects to move the Town forward; to help Dover reach and achieve its full potential, but this person needs the moral and financial support of the main stakeholders in Dover; to my mind (although Peter thinks otherwise) these are DTC, DDC and DHB.
I have never said (recently) it must be me, there may well be other people who love Dover, want to see it move forward and have the respect of the business community, plus the ideas for projects and initiatives to move Dover forward.
If we don't shout about what needs doing, people won't hear it and if people don't hear it, nothing will get done.
Roger
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
Roger I think all the active community forums (LRCF, Priory and Tower Hamlets spring to mind) do a great job along with the Lions, Dover Society, Dover Carnival(s), Dour volunteers, WHPS and WCCP and collectively show what can be done. We probably need to more formally build links and draw in the less active forums (e.g. Castle Avenue) and smaller community groups (many doing great work up St Rads for instance) so we can all help each other out.
Yes we do need a greater official focus on the town centre itself and we desperately need the various Councils to put the toys away, stop butting heads together and work for the collective good, if this means they need to fund some form of co-ordination role then so be it. They also need to draw business representatives into the fold including the various Chambers of Commerce as well as those businesses that are not in those bodies.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
a few points here.
firstly i do not see any sign of the town and disrict council working well together.
even the toilet issue is not clear yet, private businesses were to open their doors to the public in return for an annual fee.
i saw a sign in mcd's window a while back to that effect, i don't know if it is still there or if other businesses have joined.
deal and sandwich town councils both reache agreement with the district council at least a year ago.
new town councillor and dover society member pat sherratt has launched a campaign for the district council to issue urgent notices to errant landlords to do up their property in tme for the olympic flame, good luck to him.
moving on to the chambers of commerce, not sure how many there are but as we know both the dover and channel(folkestone) chambers have offices in dover.
would be interesting to see local groups work in tandem for the collective good.
where i live we have the priory forum that has been responsible for clean ups and the clarendon and westbury one that runs a hall that has many community based things going on.
wednesday afternoon is the cup of tea and natter for the older members of the community, the friday night fun club for the kids,
bingo nights and many regular evening events such a weight watchers evening and some sort of martial arts things for the youngsters.
not forgetting the occasional coach trips that are always popular.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Thanks Ross.
The Town and District Councils do work to gether behind the scenes, to a certain extent, but I do feel there is a lack of respect from either side - perhaps that lack of respect or trust is because both councils are opposed politically - District is Conservative, Town is Labour.
Publicly they will both tell you they are working well together, but if that were true, there would be much more co-operation and progress I'm sure.
Howard
You are right, there is very slow progress, if any, on the toilets issue; when I was the Dover Chamber's Business Support Manager, I did speak about me talking to the appropriate businesses about them allowing the public to use their loos for a fee, but this was never agreed by them.
As mentioned on other threads, I had progressed the section 215 legislation while at the Chamber too, going right to the top - but with no success or acceptance by DDC.
The two Chambers - Dover and Channel Chamber have shown a complete lack of understanding about Town Centre and/or retail support, both have told me that membership money, rather than actual support, is most important - of course membership is important as without membership you have no voice, but it isn't the most important.
I don't think Channel Chamber have any actual or physical presence in Dover any more, after they stopped paying me (dismissed through lack of affordability - I had done my job on work-placement), they did not replace me.
I totally agree that the collective good (of Dover) should be the over-riding factor for any one or set up, working for Dover: party politics, or even Chamber politics shouldn't even come into it.
Roger
