Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
#1
Bumped into my neighbour in town just now and what she said was probably the most telling comment on the town I have ever heard.
"I can't wait till I get up there," she exclaimed. Was she moving to Whitfield or Guston, I wondered?" I mean heaven. When I'm dead. I went to Canterbury the other day and it was lovely. There's nothing here."
At first I felt depressed but as I reflected I became angry and so I am venting here. It is a national scandal that anyone should feel so bad about where they live that they would rather not be alive.
I blame for Dover's decline, in no particular order: British Coal/Department of Energy, World War 1 and 2, the Department of Transport, P&O, Dover District Council, 60s so-called town planning, the peddlers of the absurd destructive quasi-religion of Political Correctness/smug privileged holier-than-thou Guardianistas, governments of various colours, the privileged positon of Dover Harbour Board which prevents the town benefiting properly from the port, the selective education system which short changes 75 % of the town's kids/the ineptitude of South Kent College, the lack of vision and dynamism of those in charge of the town over the last 40 years, sheer market forces beyond anyone's control, SEEDA, the lily-livered adherance to Political Correctness of elements of the local press /the sensationalising of sensitive issues by same for a cheap circulation boost, an obsession with the past and historical anachronisms, hatchet jobs by elements of the national press, the snobbery/Schadenfreude of the rest of Britain (and especially neighbouring towns) that they have not got some of Dover's problems.
When I say that Dover shames the UK, that it is not a criticism of Dover so much as of the UK.
A learned friend once suggested only half-jokingly that we should turn our backs on Britain and join France. It is starting to seem like a good idea.
If Britain had merely let down Dover it would be a vast improvement on what has actually happened. I was going to write that it was the equivalent of a so-called 'happy slapping' - like a robbery carried out and filmed while the criminals laugh at the victims.
But in Dover's case it is not that good. At least the victims of happy slappings get sympathy from the wider community. Not so Dover. Our very howls of protest have been laughed at and used against us - in fact it is as if the whole town had been subjected en masse to a kind of mental abuse, Persecuted in fact. Dover has been turned into what sociologists would term an out-group by the rest of the UK. Anyone who doubts this should look at non-league football forums and see kind of abuse aimed at Dover.
I personally feel no loyalty whatsoever to this country any more beyond supporting our sports teams and would not fight for it in a war as a matter of principle.
I am also fed up with the rudeness of people in places like Canterbury, and Deal (especially the stuck-up self-satisfied DFLs descending on Deal) who feel justified in openly insulting anyone who comes from Dover. We're back to snobbery and Schadenfreude again. And good old English hypocrisy.
Dover fulfils the role of Britain's scapegoat. It is like the character of Goldstein in George Orwell's '1984' - an entity onto which a nation's disowned darkness is projected.
How is it that a town which possesses such world class icons as the White Cliffs, Dover Castle and the Port of Dover is not uppermost in the public consciousness for these things? If you carred out a nationwide free-association on Dover I would bet the main result would be none of the above.
And it would demonstrate the level to which the rest of the UK mean-mindedly projects its own disowned racism onto our town. Hypocritical, NIMBY England.
If there was an equivalent of a war crimes trial for crimes against society, there would be a few candidates in Dover's case, for sucking the hope out of people to such an extent that they would rather be dead.
#2
Brilliant, Andrew.
Never has the shocking reality of Dover's situation been so viscerally and accurately exposed. Andrew's posting above should be printed and pinned to the door of every councillor's office, the HQ of DHB and all the other quangoes who fiddle and obfuscate while Dover rots and dies.
I have often of late thought about and feared for the poor bewildered older generation of Dovorians still stuck with living in the hell that has become their once lovely, gentle, community-spirited and thriving town. I try not to think about it too often, though, as it makes me feel too sad.
And as for joining France? Like Andrew, it would get my vote in a thrice.
Pen-pushers and obfuscators: what are you going to do about Dover, once and for all??? Open your eyes, please, and act now!
Long live Dubris. Vive la France!
Andy
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
#3
I was born and brought up in the lovely Town of Sandwich,and 25 years ago moved to Dover,and it that time it has gone downhill,I suspect it has been going downhill since the War,but I am Proud to live in Dover,and Proud to represent it on the Council.
Yes it has got its problems and the 2 Andrews have justified points,I have spoken to Andrew Stucken and he knows my view point that I agree with much of what he says,but......things will get better and although we want everything yesterday the plans are close to being fulfilled.It will never be as good as everyone wants it to be,because we all want something different and we all want to see things that we will possibly never see,and remember its not my lot in at the DDC but things are moving but slower than we all thought.
We live in a Town that is World famous,The Cliffs and The Castle are known throughout the World,my friends have just visited from America and they love this Town and the Area,I was listened to a group who were talking about Tourism in Dover and they were full of moans and groans,I listened carefully and said....
Tourists will never love Dover until we stop talking it down,when you Visit Australia they don't say come over here have a wonderful time and get eaten by Sharks!!or in the USA they don't say come to Florida visit Disney and MGM and get blown sideways by a Tornado,but We in Dover do have a habit of saying we have a Brilliant Castle,Superb Cliffs but.......Lets take the But out of Dover stop running it down,Yes we know it has problems but the more we highlight them the more depressing it gets and eventually everyone walks round looking at the poor parts and forgetiing the good parts..Lets start talking up DOVER!!!!
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#4
John
I do fully appreciate your comments, and understand that Dover has a lot going for it like the famous castle, the lovely scen front, the scenery on the hills plus much much more.
but sadly we also need to keep people here, and the shops are far from adequate.
The saga on ASDA goes on, and is now being rumoured that ASDA has stalled on coming to Dover(worse rumour they aint coming at all)
Dover is looking grim, take a trip around yourself, its looks glum.
Im speaking as a passionate Dovorian who wants to see Dover get better
its frustrating to see the decline .
#5
Well said, Keith.
All this stuff about talking Dover up and accentuating the positive simply doesn't bear up when you look at the grim reality of the place...full of drunks, junkies, boarded-up shops, utter doom and gloom and generally resembling "a holding bay for the Jeremy Kyle Show", as Mark Winter said in his Dover Express column today.
God knows what the few tourists who wander bemused into the, ahem, "town centre", think of it. It's actually probably very threatening to them, unless they stumble upon the very few pleasant oases like La Salle Verte, The Allotment, The White Horse or Cullens Yard.
Poor sods - Dover tourists, that is. It's shameful and shaming. As a Dovorian, I'm embarrassed as hell.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
#6
Andrew you said the post was brilliant I think that is not the right word for that post, the word that comes to me is SAD it is so sad that we have come to this and alot of what is wrote in both the letters are right I also born in What I now call DOVOR been here all my life apart from my time in the army and working away and the town has never been so bad as it is today and I CAN NOT SEE IT GETING ANY BETTER FOR SOME TIME YET, I am only talking about the town all around it in the district it is very nice apart from the rubbish left about. DOVOR has lost its I.D. we are not a community any longer and that this just one of the problems and there are lots more we need more good family homes and stop building all the one bed room flats like the ones now going up all around the town, Events do help to get the public out and talking to each other.
Also the council must help to keep the town cleaner than it is they must get owners of the closed shops to keep them painted and clean and some of them do have the funds to do it, like the M/ Charitys in London Rd the council can use the law to do this,so do they not do so.The District council do have a cllr of empty propertys what is he or she doing about it.
It would help if more of the public went to meetings and send more letters asking more questions and did not take a no for an answer make bth the councils more answerable to the public after all it is our funding, but will this happen in our town I can not see it.The policing of our town both day and night is poor even very poor again it is our funding paying for it all, antisocial is still very high go down thw town at nights do see police walking around it is a no to that. Do you fill safe walking around at night it is a no to that to.
I read in the Dover District COUNCIL AT YOUR SERVICE NEWSLETTER, Building a BRIGHT fUTURE, WELL I am sorry to say after years telling us where is it.I do think we have the right council in place at the district but they show us the goods they keep talking about.
I have in front of me at this time the policing of Kent and reading it makes me fill good in what they tell us But in the real world it is not true yes the police on the beat are doing the best they can
but there is still alot more that can be done. I wrote a letter some time ago to Mr fULLER who is the ChiefConstable of the Kent police say he should call it a day and go when he first came to Kent and I was at that meeting he went on to say as from now it will be Zero tolerance to criminals and anti- social behaviour that has not happen he is the Captain of the ship the butt stops with him so again it is time for him to go, he is a great P.R., person but what we need is agood old fashion copper with the good old ways of dealing with it all, and there are still some about in the U.K. and they are doing well.
And I fill very sorry for the person that Andrew is posting about and she is not the only one that feels that way.
Vic matcham
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
#7
Andrew you said the post was brilliant I think that is not the right word for that post, the word that comes to me is SAD it is so sad that we have come to this and alot of what is wrote in both the letters are right I also born in What I now call DOVOR been here all my life apart from my time in the army and working away and the town has never been so bad as it is today and I CAN NOT SEE IT GETING ANY BETTER FOR SOME TIME YET, I am only talking about the town all around it in the district it is very nice apart from the rubbish left about. DOVOR has lost its I.D. we are not a community any longer and that this just one of the problems and there are lots more we need more good family homes and stop building all the one bed room flats like the ones now going up all around the town, Events do help to get the public out and talking to each other.
Also the council must help to keep the town cleaner than it is they must get owners of the closed shops to keep them painted and clean and some of them do have the funds to do it, like the M/ Charitys in London Rd the council can use the law to do this,so do they not do so.The District council do have a cllr of empty propertys what is he or she doing about it.
It would help if more of the public went to meetings and send more letters asking more questions and did not take a no for an answer make bth the councils more answerable to the public after all it is our funding, but will this happen in our town I can not see it.The policing of our town both day and night is poor even very poor again it is our funding paying for it all, antisocial is still very high go down thw town at nights do see police walking around it is a no to that. Do you fill safe walking around at night it is a no to that to.
I read in the Dover District COUNCIL AT YOUR SERVICE NEWSLETTER, Building a BRIGHT fUTURE, WELL I am sorry to say after years telling us where is it.I do think we have the right council in place at the district but they show us the goods they keep talking about.
I have in front of me at this time the policing of Kent and reading it makes me fill good in what they tell us But in the real world it is not true yes the police on the beat are doing the best they can
but there is still alot more that can be done. I wrote a letter some time ago to Mr fULLER who is the ChiefConstable of the Kent police say he should call it a day and go when he first came to Kent and I was at that meeting he went on to say as from now it will be Zero tolerance to criminals and anti- social behaviour that has not happen he is the Captain of the ship the butt stops with him so again it is time for him to go, he is a great P.R., person but what we need is agood old fashion copper with the good old ways of dealing with it all, and there are still some about in the U.K. and they are doing well.
And I fill very sorry for the person that Andrew is posting about and she is not the only one that feels that way.
Vic matcham
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
#8
DOVER is a great place to live and has a history second to none. I say this not as someone born here, but as someone who has lived in various areas of the country and chose to live in DOVER and have a family here. Our problem here is one of negativity. Yes, the White Cliffs are world famous and day trippers love the castle but why are we not encouraging them into and across the town. The Western Heights hold a range of history other areas could only dream of while having great views and amazing wildlife (lost if people start building monstrosoties on them). In the town centre we have the Roman Painted House and a range of beautiful churches, chapels and historic architecture. Why is it when a cruise ship pulls in they are ferried to Canterbury or beyond? When I spoke to a cruise passenger they were astonished to learn that it had once been a station and two thirds of the Dunkirk evacuees had passed through it. They wanted to know more so why is it not provided for them? The people of Dover are the best community I have ever lived in and we should all talk up the towns good points before the powers with 'higher agenda's' bury them in housing and ferries for the lorries.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#9
some very articulate and impassioned views here.
nothing i can add.
one minor thing though, like chris, i moved here by choice, because of the wonderful features surrounding it.
the normal people that reside here are the redeeming feature of dover.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#10
pressed the "send" button in error. listen to the locals and they will say the civic leaders have been promising good things for decades, without result.
no wonder cynicism sets in.
we get postings from councillors and dignitaries telling us how wonderful the views from the cliffs and castle are, as if it was them that provided these things.
we were told on here that a demolition would take place in july.
2 hours 45 minutes to go.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
#11
nothing will be come down this year or even next year I was hoping to see some of this new Dovor in my life just hope I live that long.
vic matcham
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#12
no wonder you feel the need to stand for parliament victor, i have only been here for 6 years, and feel frustrated.
i get wound up over the sea sports centre that was "finished" in may, i was rather looking forward to having a coffee or beer on the beach looking out to sea.
that, however, we can comfort ourselves with seeing work taking place.
you only need to be here a year to realise that dover life is almost totally reliant on volunteers giving up their time to give us events.
i will not start naming names, as i will omit a few, that may cause offence.
the town council has started to do a few things, which i congratulate them on, also some officers at the district council
dreamed up the film show and and one or two other things.
going over old ground here, why cannot the various councils and bodies get together once a month, just to synchronise
things?
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
#13
HOWARD
Lets a lot of truth in what you say
#14
You need only look at so many of the postings here (some of which are mine!) to see that it is the elected and unelected representatives of Dover who are squarely at the seat of this. There are, I am sure, many who are adequate or better, and many who are well intentioned, but overall the local reps are unable to grasp the main points of public office and effective management. Local people most certainly do not feel included or involved in Dover, there is no effective reaching out (please don't bore me with remarks about consultation processes etc - they are tick box exercises and bear no relation to proper leadership and engagement), no planning, no forward thinking......the list is endless. I try not to be relentlessly critical because it serves no purpose, but it is a challenge to remain bouyant in the face of clear incompetence.
#15
Over many decades it has been the people of Dover who elect/nominate their representatives. It is all very well criticising those in charge but the population and/ or so called democracy sets the scene.
look at how many people either attend meetings or vote. Look carefully at why they vote.....
You get the town you deserve - like the quote in the paper.
Now at least the Town is seeing a mega investment - work is happening already much is not seen but Dover is moving like never before - and in a credit squeeze that could be the best time so that investment will help with jobs. Great credit is due to those involved in getting those things in place - esp Paul W and his team.
I dont agree with much of the plans ( esp Asda as so much better could be done with the site ) but at least something is happening and the bomb site that still is Dover is changing - what I would like to see is the majority getting the enthusiasm for the vision.
One thing that is apparent is that there is more going on for entertainment than ever before - every weekend there is something to draw the people into the town.
I dont at all disagree with the comments about how sad the situation is but if you keep harping on it it will stay a self fulfilling prophesy.
I know as I have investors who look at the public statements from afar and make their decisions on whether the investments are good value here. Weekly I have to sell Dover to my clients and they are still coming here. Whatever you read about the property decline isnt reflected in my workload which is higher than ever esp in Dover.
Just wanted to inject some optimism...
#16
Come on...the only sensible option for Dubris Hubris is to join France now. The campaign starts here.
We want to see the French tricouleur flying from the top of the Maison Dieu - it's the only way to save the decaying town.
Vive le Douvres libre. Allez France!
#17
Sadly I disagree with David H - clearly we vote and nominate and have a (reduced through lack of publicity) opportunity to attend meetings, but quite a bit of what goes on is done by unelected members or out of the public eye, and the lack of publicity about events and meetings is also a disadvantage. equally disadvantageous is the response at meetings - I have been to a few - I don't go any more and I am relatively assertive and upbeat - that have descended into farce because of the defensive and muscular responses of the members if challenged, even mildly. And responding appropriately to challenge IS part of the job if you assume management responsibility for anythning at all. It is considerably more complex than just "if you vote them in it's your fault".
#18
PS - Dover IS a fabulous town with a considerable charm and bouyancy. It has buckets of character, loads of stuff to see and places of interest. It is, however, inescapably let down by its managers..........
Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
#19
Quite a debate I kicked off there.
Whatever your view on the true state of the town, I find the perception of outsiders to generally be a negative one - Dover DOES have an image problem whether we like it or not. In the interests of balance I have met people who believe, and I quote, 'Dover is the future' because of the rail link. They are in a minority but I hope they are right.
The fact is that in the minds of many people Dover = Asylum Seekers. Outdated and racist I know, but a fact.
I do my bit to politely re-educate people and would hope all true Dovorians would do the same. It's a slow job but can be achieved bit by bit.
#20
We are up against a generally right wing media who actively seek out negative tales about minorities and "the underclasses" - as such, Dover was rich pickings in the height of the refugee "crisis"! Our PR problem is hindered by an elected and unelected management that couldn't track down a PR gift if given a map and deerstalker. We desperately need some people with a bit of media savvy and/or clout who can big-up Dover properly and visibly. Hello......where are you???!!