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  Keith but surely what we need to have is a paradigm shift in what we consider as a society to be a job/useful work.
  
  We need to start looking at not just the economic but also the societal needs that we have and to explore how these might be met at a time when the state is for good or bad contracting and pulling back from many of the things it has done in the past. Society needs to think about if those things the state has decided it can no longer do are important to us, if they are then how do we provide them and how do we reward those who make that provision.
  
  At the same time we also need to look at what we consider to be remuneration, how we tax it and what we tax and at what level tax actually kicks in.
  
  There are of course groups within our society that will always require a safety net and our support (financial physical and emotional) including those who are terminally ill, those who have retired, those who are genuinely unable to work through illness or disability, those who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own, those in work on low incomes to name the most important ones. This is where the state must and should intervene through a mixture of direct targeted benefits, tax credits, tax thresholds etc. Where we should not be providing support is to those who choose to opt out of education and/or training, those who make themselves unemployed or unemployable etc. As for those families who think they have a right to keep reproducing regardless and the society has a responsibility to support this - it has to be time to say "think again"; we need to turn the argument on its head and make it clear that parents have a duty and responsibility to make sure they have the means to support their offspring without the states intervention; after all we are already providing enormous support through free education, healthcare etc.

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