howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#1
the justice minister, kenneth clarke raised this issue today reasoning that we should imprison less offenders.
his reasoning is that it is counter productive as more than half of released prisoners are back inside within a year of release.
the cost of keeping inmates is 40 grand a year, more than educating them at eton.
the blue press is up in arms as are activists who are usually of the hang em and flog em school of thought.
the previous blue home secretary michael(something of the night) howard stated that prison works, indeed it does in that people cannot offend when in their cells.
i am assuming that mr clarke is referring to non violent offenders only in his statement.
would be good to hear some thought out forum views.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#2
I would bang 'em up, if we want to keep the costs of jail down feed them bread and water and pile them up in the cells.
Some, teenage thugs and hooligans, could have a community service order against them, by that I mea..... Time in the stocks, rotten fruit available for free recylcing by the populace nearby. The birch as well for the the worse offenders....
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
#3
Been nice knowing you :)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#4
barry
you really must stop reading the guardian.
paul
i would have thought that having sky tv in cells would count as a cruel and unusual punishment.
Guest 672- Registered: 3 Jun 2008
- Posts: 2,119
#5
BANG them up, take away ALL of their comforts, thats what they are in there for.
Make it harder so that they DON'T like it and then you will get less in.......therefore the cost will go down. Simples peeps.
This country is truely STUPID.
grass grows by the inches but dies by the feet.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#6
not that simple ian, there are people doing bird for not paying their council tax, tv licence or similar.
i seem to remember an old lady that got sent down for feeding pigeons in her town centre despite being repeatedly told not to.
getting back to my original post, does anyone think it is worth 40 grand of our dosh per person to incarcerate them?
Guest 672- Registered: 3 Jun 2008
- Posts: 2,119
#7
Sorry Howard, I meant to say.
the trivial or stupid offences should really be thrown out of court there and then.
When the prisons are empty then we can throw them in. Tongue in cheek mate.
but you know what I mean
grass grows by the inches but dies by the feet.
#8
But then we get 3 lads convicted of the needless killing of Ralph Millward and who are sentenced as follows:
Jimmy Ayres, 15, = 90 weeks
Craig Real, 17, = 4 years 9 months
Warren Crago, 17, = 4 years
Det Insp Noyce, of Dorset Police, said, "It would be a sad indictment of society should this mindset be allowed to flourish unchecked. This conviction and sentence should serve as a warning to those who feel they can go through life abdicating responsibility for their actions and not then face the consequences."
I think maybe the death penalty or 25 years might send a stronger message.!!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#9
sadly the police always give a mind numbing message after a conviction.
on another theme
today a chap was sentenced to 7 years(3 and a half in real terms) for raping a 12 year old.
had previous form too, the judge reckoned this sent a message to others, i somehow doubt it.
Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
#10
Make the convicted law-breakers WORK HARD, either in prison or out of prison with community work and make the work meaningful.
Give the prisoners sufficient, but PLAIN rations, and keep them busy on USEFUL and beneficial work.
K.
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
#11
Prison does not work - as a former Tory Home Office minister once said "prison is a very expensive way to make bad people worse". The notion of rehabilitation that underpins our penal system is clearly failing and in fact has been failing for over 40 odd years. This is because there are too many prisoners (over 86,000) meaning prison officers are over worked and education services are stretched thin to the point of uselessness. Reducing the prison population will ensure that those that are put away are actually given the support and opportunities to rehabilitate.
This does not mean we should be soft on minor offences, it does however mean we need to find better sentences/punishments for these crimes, which should include properly structured and supervised community service which genuinely benefits the community. As for habitual criminals/repeat offenders we need sentencing guidelines that allow escalation of time served (e.g. for each repeat offence the sentence doubles) and/or the ability to sentence without the right to remission.
As for the conditions within prison, removal of liberty is the principle point of prison and this must and should extend to no access to e-mails or internet, heavily limited access to a pay phone, no mobile phones, television/games/radio access only during free association time etc. Further all prisoners should be encouraged to work within prison as a way of mitigating the costs of their incarceration.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
#12
This in many ways this was a shock announcement from Ken Clarke as the Conservatives were often the 'tough on crime' party, and believed in Prison. However the Conservative Party remains very divided on this. Various other Tories were on the news programmes yesterday not liking this Clarke move at all, these included Michael Howard, one time Home Secretary, who said famously in one of his noted speeches "Prison Works".
Prime Minister Blair was 'tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime'. This worked partly, in as much as that people were sent to prison in greater numbers. And once the guys are in prison, they cant commit crime. Simples. However being 'tough on the causes of crime' was the harder aspect to fix.
However although prison works ..its only a short term fix. It does prevent the immediate criminal from re-offending but once he is out...he does it again. We have to be clear and decide that we know what prison is for. It must be regarded only as a punishment as the evidence clearly shows few are rehabilitated.
#13
Wise words Ross, well said.
Personally think KC has hit the nail on the head and, maybe at long last, we will get a radical and sensible overhaul of a failing system in which the public has little confidence.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
#14
Prison really should be a last resort (barring murderers,sex offenders and violent crimes).Prison should only be for those whose offences that are so serious that they cannot do some form of community service or serve their 'punishment' in other ways.In fact most prisoners pose no real threat to life and limb of others but their crimes are committed to feed a drug,drink habit or for economical reasons.
Maybe we should look at alternatives for instance some minor offenders lose their jobs because of being incarcerated.Why not keep them at work and bang them up at the weekends therefore depriving them of their leisure and or family time.
Another alternative would be to stay at work and then put them on community service at the weekends.
In the States to combat youth crime they have introduced after school centres which led to a 27% reduction in youth related crime and resulted in 4 prisons being closed.
Night detention with a tag system is widely used and should be expanded.
Other countries have reduce media coverage for two reasons so as to protect the victims and prevent the crims becoming notorious 'celeb' type figures.It steals their 15 minutes of being famous.
Basically these are to treat current offenders and reduce the prison population but the real answer lies in parental guidance and responsibilty and a better education system. Most offenders derive from bad and broken homes where at least one family member is a previous inmate and most are illiterate. That in itself speaks volumes. I shall now await the forumite flak to arrive
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#15
PaulB - Blair never did live up to his slogan, hence the pathetic criminal justice system we have now.
Clarke on this is well out of line with the vast majority of Conservatives (MPs and Party) a lot will be enraged by what he has said, in fact I know it. He is giving a win here to the LibDems who are soft on these things.
Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
#16
PUNISHMENT of Criminals:
Years ago (I mean 200 and more), criminals were put in prison only to await their trial. Which was usually very quick after they were apprehended.
Sentences carried out were, eg:
hanging (for breaking and entering, damaging people's property, and more serious assaults)
branding (petty theft, etc), marking where could be seen, as appropriate
putting in stocks and pillory
whipping in a market place, or 'at the cart's tail' (ie. behind a cart, driven through the streets)
transportation to America, and other British colonies, plantations, and later to Australia - included children as young as 10 or 11
sending into the navy or military if appropriate, especially during times of conflict.
Later, when imprisonment became an option, it was very often with hard labour,
ie. treadmills (very often non-producive,
oakum picking (picking tar off ships rope),
or the crank (continually winding a handle which did not do anything)
or solitary confinement
rations were often very sparse and plain.
I would like to see some of them put into Tilmanstone stocks instead of this character:
K.
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred
#17
Blimey Kath, for a moment I thought that was our long lost brother Councillor NigelC; and then I realised he hasn't got a tie like that one in the picture.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
#18
The good old days Kath. No-one cried over criminals then and so it should be.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#19
i think that ross gave the most sensible post, why lock petty offenders up when they could be busy working in the community.
look at our town for example, it desperately needs a lot of buildings cleaned up, weeds removed from the fabric of some, and a few coats of paint to finish.
get a prison officer or two to supervise, then get roger to detail exactly what needs doing bingo.
multiply that around the country we save a fortune in prison costs, leave space inside for the nasty ones. then all the rundown areas get a makeover.
the offenders(many have never done a days work before) might even get a sense of job satisfaction and a taste for real work and self respect.
if that is what mr clarke is proposing then i feel we should all back him.
