Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
With all the talk of minimum wages, something that appears to get missed is the above
where employers can legally pay just £2-65 an hour for a year for an apprentice
surely that is an area that needs looking at
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Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
No I do not think so,doing a real apprenticeships of five years or more,it has always been the same even when we were lads, first year it is all schooling .not even going to the workshop ,it is some time maybe two years before the apprentice starts real work even then there is always a trademan with them,it takes alot of money for a boss to pay out over the five years thats why the wages is low to start off with,and some times a boss will pay out all that cash the apprentice does his time and then when a trademan he packs the job in and moves on,and the boss who paid out for five years is (1)Out of pocket(2) He has lost a skilledman. I have seen it so many times over the years.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
# 2 Agree,but the boss gets five years cheap labour and within two years a `tradesman`
for three years of them.
Personally my apprenticeship started at £ 1.99 s per week but it was a superb foundation for a career
and a thoroughly enjoyable access to a working life.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
just a mo boys,,,,,,,,
some apprenticeships go direct to the coal face(so to speak)
doing the job
and the companies get £15,000 for taking on the guy/girl
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Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
I am talking about a real five year apprenticeship again with them they start off with a year at collage.Then about two days on the work shop floor watching a skilled man and they might make a project for the collage to look at etc.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
And im talking about employers can use this to employ someone on £2-65 a year or 5 years
and offer no job at the end
cheap labour and its happening
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Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Our apprenticeship Scheme at East Kent Railway is designed to give the Apprentices, a minimum of 15 weeks of training,obtaining all the necessary certificates, such as PTS, first aid, small tools etc. that they will need to be employed in the Rail Industry.
Whilst at EKR they are on £2-65 an hour plus expenses but unlike other schemes, when they gain employment, even though we send out our assessors to assist them and keep an eye on them, throughout the first year, nothing is taken from them, they receive full wages once they are employed.
Once in employment it is up to them, how they perform will determine when they lose their Blue Hat(trainee) status and after a year, if successful, they will receive their NVQ Level 2.
The industry gains through getting employees that come with certificates that cost well over £1000+ and have already received work experience.
EKR gains by having these lads on sight doing jobs that are needed to keep the railway moving forward but it is much more than that for many of us, just to see these lads having something meaningful to look forward to, is far more rewarding to us.
Our Communities gain, by having many of their youth employed and contributing in a far more positive way than they ever could have hoped for.
This scheme must survive, this alone can achieve so much for so many people, it must be supported.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Garyc
Your set up is one of voluntary and can be more justified in the way its goes about things(do you get your £15,000 from govt, to save your charity money?)
what I refer to is the employers that exploit this
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Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Sorry but there is a mixup here I am talking about a five some is more years appenticeships,sorry Gary what you are doing is great and will get a young person on the the railway net work but it is not a real appenticeship and with that their wages go up must say not alot each year as they move on.With a good appenticeship may be they do not do them anymore you can take your papers anywhere in the world not just the UK and you will get work as a skilled man any other way they are just a semi-skilled person but can still make it to a skilled person by just working on the shopfloor watching the skilled person.But with a appenticeship you are skilled as soon as you pass out.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
Apprentices in the past had to pay to be taken on in the first place and have always been poorly paid. I suspect with some small firms these apprentices are the only way they can keep going.
Which is worse.......... youngsters sitting at home playing their Xbox and collecting their dole money or earning a pittance while learning a trade that might in the future make them the skilled tradesmen who rob us blind when we need their help.
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Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
You are talking on the right lines Mrs Higgins but cannot agree on your last few words.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
but replacing workers with cheap labour?
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Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Vic.
You are right to say that our scheme is for 1 year and not 5 years but to say it is " not a real apprenticeship" is not right.
We have moved on from the old style apprentice scheme and more importantly moved away from using apprentices as cheap labour. Once into the industry and after receiving their Level 2 NVQ, it is up to them how they present themselves, how their skilled work colleagues receive them and how they impress their employer that will determine the rest of their career.
An aside to our scheme and for me a very important bi-product, is our D&A zero tolerance policy.
We do not turn away those youths who have problems with drugs & alcohol, we actively encourage them to get clean and pass our strict tests and then because of the same zero tolerance that is in place within the industry, with random testing, by companies and railway regulatory bodies, they have to stay clean.
Some of our intake have already thanked us for giving them a reason not just to give it up but more important, giving them a reason to stay of it.
I understand what you mean Vic, ours is not like the old 5 year Apprenticeship Scheme but that does not mean it is not a real one.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
Regarding 'not being paid a real wage'
Apprentices are learning a trade/craft, and a master has to take them on with all th extra responsibility; in the past a lot of apprentices (their family) had to pay a fee to be trained, and were not neccesarily paid any wages, their 'service' to the master was part of the consideration for their training. Maybe not quite the same now, but they are learning whilst working.
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred
Guest 667- Registered: 6 Apr 2008
- Posts: 919
One thing I will say about Stagecoach is that they do have in my opinion a very good apprenticeship scheme and many stay on with the Company when they have completed their NVQ's over three and four years. The fourth year is optional depending on how well the apprentice has done in achieving his/her NVQ's.
They start off by doing block release of three months at Bristol College, then three months in the workshop with a skilled person completing modules set by the college then it's back to college again for another 3 months and that is how it carries on through the first three years. They are at Bristol college with other apprentices from around the country and stay with vetted families while in Bristol and always have a room of their own so that they can study, weekends are their own to study or they can come home if they wish.
It works well and they do get a good level of pay which increases annually. It must work for as I said many stay on with the Company after their apprenticeship has finished and some even climb the ladder. I know that in Stagecoach East Kent at the present time there are at least two of the five engineering managers that have gone through the apprenticeship scheme and also two of the assistant engineering managers.On top of that the current Engineering Director was an East Kent (prior to Stagecoach) apprentice,
Apprenticeships do still work but part of the trouble is that in today 's world a lot of youngsters are pushed away from engineering type apprenticeships, looking more for I.T. jobs and the like. Getting your hands dirty is often considered to be for those that have underachieved at school and that way of thinking at school level certainly needs to change.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
What you are saying Harry is right,but a welder can get very good pay £500 to £600 per week even down here even more somtimes but a good welder on the rigs etc £1000 perweek or more ,but it is still hard to get the right lads to do apprenticeships.But I had agood time with good money and went all over the place and overseas yes you are away from home alot but it is a good paid job.It is hard to work away so much if you are a family man like I was .My first wife said one day when I came home"You are away so much so stay away for good. But one does not have to work away like that.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
some employers will exploit it
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
some pay apprentices wages as its cheaper than minimum wage with no guarentee of a job at the end
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