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    As usual this descends into personal attacks and slurs - oh how predictable.

    As to Barry's post

    Yes the Labour party was founded on collectivism as it was created by working people for themselves and they had learnt via the union movement that collective action was the only way to allow them some semblance of power in an unequal world. However they have always operated an internal democracy, unlike some of their founding unions, and fully support and endorse the democratic process.

    The Conservative party has always been a libertarian party, however until the post war period was also the party of privilege (because how can one be truly libertarian unless one is also privileged). Whilst this has slowly changed since the fifties, it still has a huge capacity to show utter contempt and disdain for the ordinary working person.

    To be honest neither party fills me with joy, both have their internal control mechanisms to keep the mavericks in line, though the Tories generally offer a little more leeway than the Labour Party.

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